Want to know what separates successful companies from ones that fail? Jonathan D’Ambrosio is joined by Jackie Pomposelli on the latest episode of The Seller’s Edge. Together, they peel back the layers of operations at successful companies. Jackie, a seasoned leader with extensive experience in building and leading high-performing operations teams, shares her insights on everything from building strong infrastructure and maintaining operational discipline to the importance of DEI initiatives and employee benefits. Read the full transcript of their conversation below.
Episode 19 of The Seller’s Edge, Jackie and Jonathan talk about:
- 02:12 – The Definition and Scope Of Operations
- 03:10 – How to Build Strong Company Infrastructure
- 05:50 – The ‘Us Vs. Them’ Mentality Within Companies
- 07:17 – Protocols Don’t Impede Speed And Innovation
- 08:41 – The Importance Of SOPs
- 12:36 – Value Stakeholder Feedback and Process Improvement
- 13:25 – Why Onboarding New Employees Can Make or Break a Company
- 15:06 – How Critical It Is to Maintain Operational Discipline
- 24:20 – Challenges With Automated Chatbots and Transferring Customers
- 30:03 – How Can We Eliminate Silos?
- 37:44 – Challenges and Inefficiencies in Integrating Systems
- 38:39 – Managing Integration Processes Effectively
- 41:16 – Why a Positive Company Culture Helps Drives Revenue
- 45:29 – How Employee Benefits Represent a Company’s Values
Key Takeaways:
- Establish and Evolve Processes: Implement clear processes from the start to prevent confusion and inefficiencies. Always seek to maintain operational discipline during periods of hypergrowth, adapting and scaling processes as needed.
- Streamlined Onboarding and Training: Create a comprehensive onboarding process that quickly integrates new employees, giving them the necessary training and resources to adapt effectively.
- Always Improve the Customer Experience: Enhance your customer service experience by removing as many touch points as you can. Ensure continuity of information between customer service representatives.
- Enhance Communication and Trust: Promoting transparency and information sharing between departments helps break down silos, especially in remote work environments. Encourage and maintain strong relationships with your team to foster better communication and smoother implementation of changes throughout the company.
- Evaluate Long-Term Impacts: Consider the long-term implications of operational decisions, especially system integrations, to drive sustainable business growth.
- Invest in Culture and DEI: Creating a positive work environment to promote employee happiness helps boost productivity and cut costs. Commit to genuine and authentic DEI efforts by investing money and resources into making meaningful changes.
Full Transcript of Episode:
JONATHAN: Do you think operations is the best name for it? I feel like many people who aren’t in operations don’t really know what that means.
JACKIE POMPOSELLI: I do think it is the right name for it, but I think you can get more prescriptive about what type of operations you’re doing because there are a bunch of different ones. So, for example, there’s internal operations where you’re focused on how the business is operating internally, finding efficiencies in the way that you’re doing things. It includes things like account payables, like those types of things, which is very different than if you’re doing something like marketing operations. Right. Which is a totally different thing. So I do think operations is the right name for it, but I think depending on the type of ops that you’re focused on, you need to be specific because they do require different skill sets to you.
JONATHAN: What do you think the essence of operations is? If you had to give me like a elevator pitch?
JACKIE POMPOSELLI: Yeah. I like to think of operations as sort of like the infrastructure builders of a company. So that’s usually how I try to describe it to people. You know, you’re building what the framework of the company is in its day to day. So whether it’s like process oriented or even like the structure of the organization, that’s what operations is doing.
JONATHAN: Yeah, and that’s how I have always seen it. And I’ve always seen it as a. It’s funny because I think if you ask any department in a company, they’re going to say they’re probably the most important part of the company. I’m trying to think if there’s actually. Yeah, like, I even like. It would absolutely say that. I’m trying to think if there’s any ancillary departments, it wouldn’t be like, no, we’re kind of. But yeah, I think everyone thinks that they’re the star quarterback of a company, but I happen to think that about operations, and I’ve never worked in operations. Like, I think operations is a very integral part of a company. And I guess you could argue project management to some extent, too, even though their litter boxes are very close together. But, like, do you think the perception by the rest of the company understands how important operations is?
JACKIE POMPOSELLI: I don’t. And I think oftentimes people don’t include operations early enough, don’t consider including operations, or they don’t even really know how to interact with Ops. That is something that I see all of the time. Problem is, when you’re a small company, not having an infrastructure and how you operate is fine, right. Because there’s less people, less departments, less complications. I’ve seen endless companies that don’t have good operations crumble because they grow too fast and they don’t have the safeguards or foundation in place to run the business where it’s scaling. So, you know, I’m biased, obviously, but I do think operations is extremely important. And I think if it’s working hand in hand with revenue driving sides of the business and, you know, not stopping things like innovation or moving quickly, but they’re working together in a really collaborative way, then you can be really successful. But I think there’s a misconception that operations is the enemy of speed and innovation. And I actually don’t believe that whatsoever.
JONATHAN: Yeah, I don’t believe that either. I think that’s. I think it’s a key to that. Like, that’s why I’m very confused that people have that perception. You use the word collaboratively and it’s just, I feel like that in itself could be a whole conversation. Because culturally at companies I have found, well, one, usually departments operate from an US and them mentality, right? And I don’t know where that comes from or where it’s born from because, I mean, aren’t we all on the same team trying to achieve the same goal? Like, we all either thrive together or we feel together. Like, I don’t know why everyone wants to be the savior of a company or specific departments do, but that’s a cultural problem, I imagine, right?
JACKIE POMPOSELLI: Yeah, I think it’s a cultural problem and I think it’s a resource problem. Right? So people that get really competitive between departments, it’s likely that the company is resource constrained and they’re sort of trying to one up each other to get access to those limited resources. Although operations isn’t completely resource free, we’re one of the less resource intensive sides of the business, not including technology investment, because obviously that’s very expensive. So I never really understand why people don’t want to work collaboratively with ops, other than maybe a misconception of how they can work best with them. And then again, like, feeling like, you know, operations is so process oriented, they really like, want structure and all of these things. And because of that, we don’t want to include them because they’re going to slow us down. But at the end of the day, like, you need a little bit of that slowdown and thoughtfulness to make sure that, like I said, you’re not scaling beyond your means, which is actually a really dangerous thing for a company to do.
JONATHAN: Yeah, I was actually, I had this, I had this experience that closely relates to this, so I can use it as a metaphor. And I never realized how perfect it was. And so I might use it from now on, but I was on the highway, and there was a part where the highway deviates onto, like, another interstate, and it was early in the morning, so there’s a bottleneck of traffic waiting to get off the exit. And there are people who, because there’s a long line, just cut around the entire line and then go try to bottleneck into where the off ramp is. And I was just like, don’t those people understand that that’s why traffic happens? Like, if we didn’t have to worry about that, traffic would move a lot faster? And I think it’s interesting to me that people think that them trying to be fast is like everyone else is slowing them down when they’re the reason that things are slow. So I think that they’re kind of closely, kind of parallels with what we’re talking about because I think a lot of departments want to get there fast and accomplish what they need to accomplish because of whatever it is. Q, four goals, KPI’s what have you, but that’s a short term success. Sure, you can get it done by Friday, but you’re just fragmenting so many different things that you’re going to have to maintain over a number of years to ensure one, a quality product to a great working experience, but also a smooth customer experience. Right? Yeah. And I’m curious, how do we teach people that, I don’t know if there’s a way to just drive that home.
JACKIE POMPOSELLI: Well, I think one of the things that I point to with that is if you think about anything that you know how to do really, really well, and you do it the same way every time because, you know, a quick and easy way to do it, a lot of times that’s what operations is doing. Right. We’re creating maybe a bit of work upfront to develop those workflows, processes, use, technology, training, et cetera. But the downstream effect of that is being able to move a lot faster because people aren’t doing things differently each time that they’re doing it. So people hate standard operating procedures. I don’t even like writing them. They’re not fun. Like, they’re not the super interesting and sexy thing to do in your day to day. But the reason that they’re super important is because they teach people the most efficient way to get from point a to point b. And if you actually do it and it becomes second nature for you. You can do things a lot quicker, you can move a lot faster. And I think people sometimes forget that because the upfront work of it, the amount of meetings, conversations, you have to have to figure out those inefficiencies, roadblocks, whatever, bottlenecks is a lot of work. But once it’s launched and people are bought in and you have the materials to train them on how to do it the same way every time, you actually, without even realizing it, are moving way faster than you. You were initially when everyone was doing things differently.
JONATHAN: I like that. Yeah. And it’s true. I’m curious if you think if you went into a company, say your employee number four, whatever you’re there from the onset, you can incorporate all the processes that you want, you can make sure that everything’s aligned. Do you think that there’s just a element of human error that even if you have that in place, like, it’s going to go off the rails at some point just because of people coming in and being like, oh, we should do it this way?
JACKIE POMPOSELLI: Yeah. Human error exists in every element of life, right, beyond just work. So you always account for human error no matter what. And you can’t prevent that, unfortunately. But I think what’s important about having those processes is that if you’re say, I’m employee number four and they asked me to come in because they want to build a really solid operational infrastructure, the companies that do that and really buy into it tend to work much better. And even when they do have human error, for example, or something isn’t going well, that’s usually a signal to the operator that, like, something needs to be changed in the process. And I tell people all the time, like, just because you launch a new process doesn’t mean you kind of put your hands up and move on to something else. Like, you constantly have to be iterating, getting feedback, looking for those errors that are coming up time and time again and making sure that your process is scaling with the business needs.
JONATHAN: Is there sort of like a, like a macro and micro way of looking at it? Like, I’m just curious about departments because, again, Neverland worked in operations, but I’ve always been an admirer of the fact that it’s there. Departments will have specific programs, right? Like they’ll, there will be software that might be specific to product development or whatever product or whatever department there is. Does operations ever sort of vet, like, what those platforms are? Because I’m thinking at some point they start just to use this as an example. I worked for a company where everybody else was using a different project, like project management platform. Like there is one department using Monday, there’s another one using airtable and all these things. And what ended up happening is anytime a department ended up collaborating with another department, they basically were doing duplicate efforts because whatever project was built on Monday then had to be built in airtable so it could be managed by another team.
JACKIE POMPOSELLI: Right.
JONATHAN: Is that something that operations look at, or is it more just looking at broader strokes in the business?
JACKIE POMPOSELLI: Yeah, I think both. I mean, for me, in any operations role or even leadership role I’ve been in, like managing technology should be a part of it. Now, the example you’re using is a byproduct of signing on for all of these things. And teams getting really used to the way that they do things before they brought in operators to really like collaborate and talk about that. Now, that doesn’t mean every team needs to operate the same way, but what you start to see if you don’t have operations, even thinking about something like a yemenite procurement process, these are really important things to make sure that when you get down the line, you don’t find out that you have six different accounts for the same software. And instead maybe you’re looking at like an enterprise level account. Right. With that company, because you end up saving money down the line, even though that upfront cost might be more. So, yes, I think operations in partnership with technology, if there’s a technology team or it should always understand what technology the company is using, who has the accounts, how you ask for budget for new technology, going through procurement processes, all of those things are super duper important. And this goes back to efficiency and making sure that the company isn’t wasting money on unnecessary things. So definitely that’s something that I, I would recommend that Ops is kind of tapped into the tools and resources that a company is using.
JONATHAN: So now I want to ask you a hypothetical question. Obviously, you don’t have a solid data point, but I’m curious what your thoughts are. What percentage of companies do you think actually do that operate that way where they’re auditing things at that level versus a free for all?
JACKIE POMPOSELLI: I don’t have a percentage, but I would imagine that companies that have higher revenue numbers and higher operating costs are really locked and loaded on those types of things. So I would imagine companies that are operating really well and have over the $50 million range have a pretty good handle of what tools and resources their teams are utilizing and also have budgets so that teams have the resources they need to invest where they need to.
JONATHAN: Okay, I like that. And that’s probably absolutely true from what I’ve seen. And then when, because you kind of pointed out the human error thing and like, people are going to have to iterate on it, what do you do to ensure? I guess it’s a two pronged question because one is what do you do just regularly to make sure that people are sticking to sops and maintaining processes? And then also, is there anything that companies do to ensure that new onboarded employees are also tapped into that?
JACKIE POMPOSELLI: Yeah, that’s a really good question. I think it’s pretty evident through. Well, let me back up. When you work in operations, one of the number one things you have to do constantly is check in with your stakeholders to evaluate how processes are working to uncover operational deficiencies in the way that you do things. Like without your stakeholders, you don’t really have the information you need. Also, you know, if you work at a company that provides a service to someone or a SaaS company, you can really uncover where there are efficiencies needed in your process by reading things from your consumers, by talking to your clients, those kinds of things. So that’s a huge thing. You really have to be tapped in to the feedback from your stakeholders, whether they’re internal or external. I would say employee onboarding is critical to the success of a, a company. And one thing is new employees, no offense to them or any of us, when we’re new employees, our resource sucks, right? They don’t know what they’re doing. They need a lot of training. They’re probably going to make mistakes. You got to pull them aside and show them things so they are a resource intensive part of a company. So if you have a proper onboarding process that’s going to set those employees up for success and make them less needy or resource heavy because they have the training, the tools, the resources they need to get up and running not only quickly, but sort of self, in a self guided way, then you are going to see value out of your new employees much faster. And especially if you work in a service industry, you don’t really want to release new employees that don’t know what they’re doing to your clients because it’s a bad client experience for them. So it actually is in your best interest to make sure that you have pretty solid onboarding process when you bring new folks into a company.
JONATHAN: I like that. And then here’s a. Because I know culture is very important to you. Just having spoken to you before and there’s something that’s always, I think there’s multiple, I think there’s multiple issues that I’m about to point out, but I’m just curious what your take is on it, because my experience at companies is one, companies tend to hire external candidates because people like the shiny new thing rather than internal candidates. Whereas I would imagine having an internal candidate that knows the processes is just better for everyone and they’re going to be able to just do the work better and also have relationships built. But there’s this other part of it where the external candidate that’s usually hired is somebody that somebody knows. And what happens is, especially when you are building a new department, whether it’s, I don’t know, like an AI department or whatever companies are trending towards these days, whoever is in charge of that department tends to hire, like, a team from some other company that they worked with. And so what you’d have is this influx of this team that already has this pre established culture with each other from this other company that comes into your company. So it doesn’t mesh well because it’s not like they’re going to seamlessly adapt to whatever environment you’ve cultivated. But it additionally, I think that they’re always bringing in like, oh, this is like how we used to do at the other company, so like, we should be doing it this way and bringing in those things. And because you have that herd mentality, you have people like kind of supporting that as well. And I’m curious what your thoughts are on that. Is that something you’ve observed and how do you feel like that affects operations?
JACKIE POMPOSELLI: Yeah. Wow. That’s a loaded question.
JONATHAN: I advertised it correctly.
JACKIE POMPOSELLI: on some level. I can think off the top of my head right now of some employees that I would not even think twice about before hiring them because they’re so good at their jobs, they’re so reliable, they’re adaptable, those kinds of things. And, you know, when you’re building out a team, you want to make sure that the folks that you’re bringing in not only are good hard workers, but that they sort of mirror the values and culture that is important to you. But not all cultures fit all companies, right? So that is something that you have to be aware of. For me, I would only bring in folks that I knew were adaptable and I would be very transparent about, like, what the culture looks like now and what the company wants it to look like in the future and then have a very candid conversation if they feel comfortable fitting that mold or perpetuating that culture so that you don’t have someone coming in trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. Like that’s not what you want. But I also think it’s a miss to not consider folks that you don’t know or that have kind of a different point of view as you. Because having that diverse perspective challenges people to think outside of the box. And just because you operated really well under this particular culture at X, Y and Z company doesn’t mean it’s going to work really well at, you know, a different company. So, you know, something like employee referrals, I always tend to take those things seriously. I’ve had it work out really well in the past and I’ve actually had it been an absolute disaster. But it all goes back to when you are opening a role or backfilling a role, that you’re super duper clear on the roles and responsibilities that are required of that role, the skill set you’re looking for, and that you talk about these things in the interview process. Under no circumstances should you just hire somebody because they know somebody else. Like, it should be a collective decision amongst multiple people on the team. And that kind of safeguards those situations where you’re hiring maybe someone who is really great somewhere else, but isn’t a good fit elsewhere. And again, it goes back to process, like having a really solid interview process to ensure that those situations and people’s inherent biases don’t sort of cloud what the actual business need is.
JONATHAN: Do you think that there should always be like an operations checkpoint in the interview process or like the phases of an interview?
JACKIE POMPOSELLI: It’s interesting because the role I’m in now, I oversee a lot of internal ops, including HR and talent acquisition. I think you have to try to create the most unbiased interview process that you can. One great way of doing that is having a core, like skill sets or cultural specific questions and having something like a scorecard where it’s very easy to suss out where somebody is excelling in terms of the criteria or culture you’re looking for and where they’re not, and then sharing that information amongst the interviewing team. I think that that’s a good way to create those touch points. It doesn’t necessarily have to be operations driving that, but that is what a solid interview process could look like.
JONATHAN: Yeah, this doesn’t sound as sexy as like, oh, make a million dollars tomorrow. But I think that this is so integral to that because a lot of the people that are in e commerce that are starting out, I mean, ideally, would like to start building companies. And I think if you’re going to start building companies, it’s so crucial to have these things in mind when you go into it, because I think, obviously, so many people who start companies have never started companies before, so they don’t have that experience or, like, the thought of, like, how to keep those things consistent and maintain operational discipline throughout a growth phase. And I’ve seen so many companies be fragmented in the way that they look at things. Like, there are companies that had acronyms for five different things, but it was like, the same acronym. You’re just confusing people across the board there, like, different software platforms, like, all sorts of things. And it’s so much easier to build processes from the bottom up rather than. Because no one likes change, right? Like, I definitely don’t like change. And if you have people who are doing something at a company for four years, and then all of a sudden you’re like, listen, we realize that all of our operations and the way we do things are a little, like, hectic, and we kind of need to clean it up. It’s going to be a lot harder to teach those people to change their ways, then just kind of build it from scratch. And I notice it in so many different places. And one of the latest things that I’ve noticed, I’d be curious what your operational take is on this, because it is a customer experience piece, but with AI, like, a lot of things that happen is you have automated chatbots on websites for customer service, right? And for some reason, I don’t know what I’m doing wrong in life, but I’m interacting with more customer service chatbots than I normally do. And it is so frustrating because I know how to troubleshoot issues. So I’m like, whatever their garden variety troubleshooting, that’s not what I need. And everyone has stopped publishing telephone numbers to be able to actually reach a live customer service thing. So what you basically have to do is go and break a chat bot, which is frustrating in itself, and then you get diverted to a customer service team. And the more infuriating part of that is I’ll get sent to a customer service agent, I’ll explain my problem. They’ll be like, oh, okay. Like, now I understand. I’m basically triaging you, going to send you to the next person who can actually help you, and then I get transferred to somebody else, at which point there is no continuity in my information of, like, what my problem is. Like, the next person has no idea where I’m not, why I’m on the line. They’re like, hi, who am I talking with today? I’m like, how have you not at least just figured out a way to streamline that of communicating between departments when it’s a customer service? Because it’s just such a bad experience. And I’m curious, like, from an operational standpoint, have you experienced that and what would you do to kind of deal with that?
JACKIE POMPOSELLI: Yeah, I mean, I’ve experienced that a lot, in fact. And I don’t even know, can I name corporations while we’re talking?
JONATHAN: I mean, I would. If it’s their problem, they could. They could use that help.
JACKIE POMPOSELLI: Yeah. So a great example, I recently switched from Comcast to Verizon for that same exact reason. And that’s because it was almost impossible for me to break the bot on Xfinity and actually get to a customer service rep. And with Verizon, it was much easier to get there. So that’s huge. Huge for me, because I know I’m talking to a real person. Transferring information between departments, if, you know, you somehow get somebody that’s the wrong department, and then they have to bring you to the next department. That’s, I’m sure, super difficult, because that transfer of information, like, has to happen really quickly. And unless you’re talking to someone and they’re recording your conversation and using AI to transmit that information, it’s going to be hard to get that from person to person really quickly. So you have to just explain yourself over and over again, which is annoying. In terms of how to fix that. I think you fix that in the intake. Right? So I have no problem with you having a chatbot that is answering my initial question, but really, that chatbot should be triaging you to the right person right away so that you’re only having to have that initial conversation one time, but you already know that you’re in the right place in terms of the technology behind that. I don’t know how to do that. But I would imagine that either the cost or the time to create that, like, firsthand, really solid, like, initial intake process to triage your calls appropriately, is not worth it to those companies for some reason. I’m not exactly sure why. It’s either a technology deficiency or it’s a cost problem, is my assumption.
JONATHAN: I mean, everyone’s trying to cut costs, so I guarantee you that’s where the chat bots come in. But I just think it has destroyed the customer experience. Yeah, I will be as patient as I can be with a live human being if you put me in, like, with an ATM, faulty ATM or a robot chatbot. Like, there’s no way that I’m going to be able to keep my composure for very long, especially if it keeps directing me to the same help article that I don’t need.
JACKIE POMPOSELLI: Right, right. And I think until the technology gets better, companies that don’t prioritize customer service are going to experience the same thing that Xfinity did with me, which is we will leave to go to a company that’s going to deliver us that solid customer experience, like Chewy.com. i will always be their customer because their live customer service is better than any company I’ve ever experienced. And I will be really, really sad if they trade in their amazing customer service reps for chatbots. But I don’t think they will, because time and time again, the reason that people are so loyal to the Chewy brand is because they know that when they call x, y, and z number, there’s a real person that’s going to answer that call.
JONATHAN: Yeah. I don’t think that’s going anywhere anytime soon.
JACKIE POMPOSELLI: Yeah.
JONATHAN: Because I think that. I mean, their entire philosophy is based around that. And, I mean, that’s the number one thing you hear from their customers. So it would be unfortunate if they did change that.
JACKIE POMPOSELLI: Yeah, it would be.
JONATHAN: Yeah. I’m just saying, if I can send the same YouTube video to five different employees and five different departments in the exact same slack message, I think that there should be some sort of platform that can solve the transferring of information between one customer service agent and another simultaneous.
JACKIE POMPOSELLI: I know, I know. And you know what? I’m sure there is, and I’m sure it’s just too damn expensive. So, no, nobody’s paying for it right now, or at least at a large scale. Can you imagine having to implement that kind of system and technology at a company the size of, like, an xfinity or Verizon? You’re talking about millions and millions of dollars of investment.
JONATHAN: So it’s a cultural piece. Right. But it’s also the communication. Communication across departments is already terrible. I’m sure the silo piece, because most departments are siloed. Is there a way to break down the silo problem? Like, have you thought. Have you seen anything or had any thoughts on that? Because I. Time and time again, no matter what problem I’m looking at, like, the silo barrier always comes up. And I’m like, if we could just get rid of this, like, the rest would be a lot easier to solve.
JACKIE POMPOSELLI: I know the silo issue is tough, especially when we’re working in virtual environments, right? Because, you know, when I worked in an office, I didn’t experience as much of these siloed conversations as I do now. Because you’re sitting next to people, you hear conversations. It’s easier for information to flow just naturally. Not that I’m saying I’m not a fan of remote work or anything like that. I just think it is an inherent challenge of working remotely. I think kind of biasedly that silos are oftentimes broken down better when there are operators in departments or there are operators that are focused on specific departments. So for example, at one of my previous companies, I had an ops team that specialized in different areas of marketing, right? So that they were kind of the ops counterpart to the teams that they served. And because of that, there was a pretty decent flow of information through the marketing team because the Ops team got together once a week and if not more. And we were like, what are you working on? What are you working on? What are the roadblocks you’re facing? Oh, you implemented this great process that might be applicable to so and so team over here. So I think that that is definitely part of it. I think also having things like project plans or tools, I’m a big fan of Monday.com. There’s no secret there that enhances the visibility to roles and responsibilities. Tasks, assignments, due dates, those kinds of things. Help with that too. It’s kind of like an accountability piece. And you know, other than that, I think oftentimes it’s up to the operators to be that bridge between departments to make sure there is information flow and to build in things like communication, best practices and policies when they’re rolling out a process. So as soon as X task is complete, these are the people that you need to update them. This is the information they need and this is how you disperse the information to those teams. So I do think silos are tough. Operations should be focused on trying to break down those silos and then putting best practices in place to help with information flow across teams usually can help with some of those things that you face, especially in a remote environment.
JONATHAN: I like that. Is that commonplace? Companies having operations counterpart parts for each team?
JACKIE POMPOSELLI: It totally depends, I think, on the structure. You know, sometimes you have, and I do consider project managers part of the umbrella of operations, although like an Ops person and a PM have different roles to play. But, you know, it’s not uncommon for companies to have portfolio project managers and service industry that support like the same teams and clients. Over and over again. But they’re part of a bigger operations organization where all that project management office is the collective team, but they support different areas of the business. And then I’ve also seen where you have operators that are focused on uncertain things. So maybe it’s like, I call it internal services. So like the internal operations, or maybe you have someone that’s focused on client operations, which is more of like the external facing side of it. I think it just depends on how big the team is and what the need is from an operations perspective.
JONATHAN: It’s interesting because every time I think about going for, every time I’ve gone and got a new job and I’m looking at job descriptions, they always tell you cross functional partners and things like that, who’d be working with. And I always feel like that’s secondary. And it seems like it would be smarter to put a greater emphasis on that than the day to day ba you work. Because I think that’s where it is culturally that it’s almost like a nuisance rather than something that can help a company flourish.
JACKIE POMPOSELLI: Right? Yeah, I think it’s super important if you work in operations that you have a good trusted relationship with the folks that you’re working with, because it makes your job so much easier if they trust you and you’re saying, listen, we have to change this process. We have to implement a process. Trust me, it’s going to create efficiencies then, you know, and they already have that trust with you then change is a much easier sell.
JONATHAN: Yeah, it’s funny because we were talking about hiring and I think the two things that, I mean, yes, I do care about experience to some extent, but not very much. I think the two things that I’m really looking for is somebody who is curious and somebody who can adapt. And I think that the ability to adapt is so important to joining an organization because things are always, there’s always nuances and just like operational idiosyncrasies, we’ll call them from every new company. And it’s funny going back to what we were talking about, that scenario in which you’re hiring teams from other, or people that you’ve hired, worked with previously, especially entire team dynamics. Like you’re probably not getting that those are probably the people who aren’t that great at adapting because they’re just bringing in the same herd of former employees that they’ve worked with rather than try something new.
JACKIE POMPOSELLI: Yeah, it’s tough. I don’t think I’m trying to think of a scenario where bringing in the exact same team that you once worked with would be really successful and entirely different company. And it just. I don’t know. I haven’t seen that be successful. But if someone has a good example of that being super successful, I’d be interested to hear it.
JONATHAN: I have not seen it, but it’s funny because I worked at a company where so many of the employees had. It was almost like this previous company, 2.0, because I would always ask people where they had worked previously and they would say this other company’s name and I’d be like, am I the only person who didn’t work at that company?
JACKIE POMPOSELLI: I’ve experienced that too. And the one company I can think of where that happened, they were not a super successful company because that synergy between departments didn’t exist because everyone was doing things the way they used to do things. And that’s where you get the instances of different teams all using different technologies to achieve the same end goal. That is so inefficient. I have an example of, okay, you use this system, I use this system. Let’s create an automation to make the systems talk to one another. Like that was kind of a last resort because it was very clear that neither team was going to give up on the systems that they used. And if you really think about it, we were probably spending so much money on two project management platforms that essentially did the same thing. And that is not efficient, nor is that a good business decision.
JONATHAN: A company that I worked for would buy up. I’m trying to think of how I can say this without outing them. There’s a company, they bought up smaller operations. Let’s say they bought up mom and pop operations in a specific industry, and they had to integrate them all because they were almost trying to create a national network of workers in a specific field, in a specific industry. So they would buy pre established companies that were already flourishing in specific areas. And when they went to go roll them into the larger operation, there would be all of these technological idiosyncrasies. I’m just going to stick to that word because I like it where the payment platform or the CRM that they used or the booking platform that they used for their clients were all different. And rather than change them, they were just trying to figure out how to have those communicate with the larger system. I was always just like, this is going to blow up in all of your faces at some point and you need to figure out how to do that. Rather than fit a star shaped peg in a square hole.
JACKIE POMPOSELLI: Right. And that is creating a scenario where you don’t have a full or accurate view of your operations, of your finances, of your client experience. Right. So that’s kind of a scary thing. Listen, it is always a headache when you integrate two businesses together. Doesn’t mean you can’t take best practices from one business and apply it to another. But from a systems perspective, the more that you can provide people with the training and resources that they need to learn the system that you’ve chosen for whatever aspect of your operations, the better, because, yeah, it just. Why acquire a brand if you’re not going to integrate it properly into your company?
JONATHAN: 100% agreed. I mean, I would imagine that the answer you’re going to get is because we want the revenue to be recognized sooner, like when we go to do our books, which is not the best answer because, yeah, you’re going to have more money this year, but you can have less money each year over year over year.
JACKIE POMPOSELLI: Right. And, you know, it can be a slow roll. You don’t have to, like, cut the cord immediately, but you should have a pretty solid process in place to account for those integrations, to account for that timeframe, to do it in a responsible and less disruptive way. Right.
JONATHAN: I mean, I don’t know if people really prioritize business continuity and how to perfect that. I think all of the things that we’re talking about are cultural issues and a paradigm shift in thinking is what it takes. I know that that’s an important piece to you because you’re a leader, and I know you’re a very strong leader because I’ve seen you lead teams. And I also know that culture is, like, a really important aspect of a company to you. And I also know that DEI work is also something that is really, like, important to you. And I’m curious from my perspective, and I’m glad that companies are concentrating on DEI work more. I just wish that it was true DEI work, because what I’ve seen is companies that are almost checking a box just to say that they have done DEI work.
JACKIE POMPOSELLI: Right.
JONATHAN: I mean, you brought up an example the last time we chatted about, like, it’s more important than just, like, changing your social media profile picture to the pride flag for a month and then switching it back like, it’s actually being involved and being an ally. And I’m curious what your take is on that, like, what your thoughts are and experiences with that.
JACKIE POMPOSELLI: I would argue that a really awesome company culture is an efficient way to operate. And why do I think that backfilling employees that quit because they don’t feel like the culture supports them is expensive. Hiring and training people is very expensive. So it’s actually within your best interest to create an environment where your employees are happy. Right. So that’s the first element of it. And I’m going to start from the business element of it because. Because that’s where people love to think about these things. Now, the second part of it, and there are actual studies about this, that happy and engaged employees are harder working, they have better outputs because they feel good about what they’re doing. They’re bought into the vision of the company, and you’re just happy people are more pleasant to work with. They’re more collaborative. They’re more likely to be working towards the same goal. Right. So kind of what we talked about with those silos or competition, you’re kind of eliminating that. And then from the human element, I just can’t fathom being, like, the highest level of leadership and not wanting to create an environment where your employees feel safe and heard. We spend so much of our day with our colleagues that the thought of creating a toxic environment would really bother me, because it’s not only not good for business, it’s just like, if you’re a good human being, you care about that stuff. So I would argue that investing in cultural initiatives, DEI initiatives, is good business. There’s no if, ands, or buts about it, not only from the typical business side of things, but from acting with integrity, for sure, the companies that do it best. And quite frankly, I haven’t really been a part of many companies that do it really well. I worked for Reebok, and they had employee led ergs, employee resource groups for all different things. Working parents, people that are multicultural, like you name it. I was only a part of the Pride Erg, and they really listened to the employees and implemented cultural things that were addressing issues that really mattered to the folks that work there. And incorporating those, and not all of them were super expensive initiatives like, you know, they were things like, you know, using queer employees to model their pride gear, which I got to be a part of, which is super fun. Also working with local nonprofits or organizations that were important to the employees and donating proceeds to them. These are all good things that are good for the business. They’re good for employees, they’re good for consumers. And I did appreciate those initiatives. Did they get every cultural DEI thing right? No, but they did have that funnel of information, those hard but important conversations with employees and their ergs. And most of the time they listened and made change. So I do think that when I was there, they were doing well with that kind of thing.
JONATHAN: Yeah, I mean, I think the really impressive part is just the trying. I mean, you don’t need to be a paragon of allyship. I just feel like. But as long as you’re doing more than just giving like, free pizza on Friday to people that they’re eating like, death row prisoners on suicide watch and they’re cubicles, like, I feel like that might be you’re doing a little bit more than that to kind of build a stronger atmosphere and environment and like, give everyone a voice, let them be who they are and feel like they’re heard. And like you said, happy employees. It’s definitely contributing to that.
JACKIE POMPOSELLI: Yeah. I think another piece of it, too, is ensuring that you have policies or benefits in place that are going to attract and retain top talent. Right. So, you know, you think of some of the most successful companies. Apple’s one of them. I have a friend that works there. Their benefits are amazing and they’re very inclusive. And I would be super interested to know what Apple’s turnover rate is versus a company maybe not of similar size, but within the same tech space that doesn’t have those benefits. I mean, you know, data doesn’t lie. And if your turnover rate is crap, then your employees likely don’t feel safe or heard in your organization and you should do something about it. And in order to really make change, you need to listen to the people that are being affected by those things.
JONATHAN: I guarantee you. And this breaks my heart and I don’t even know if this is true, but it’s probably true. Part be it for me to be a white man on podcasts talking about things that aren’t true. No, Im just sure that people are running risk assessment and financial analysis to be like, all right, were going to make money and we can afford to burn off whatever were spending on the turnover rate of our company rather than really putting in the effort for that. Because that seems like just a hassle and an inconvenience to us, which is just, I don’t want to work for that company. Like, if Im going to spend my entire life putting in my best effort at a company, I want to know that I can sleep better at the end of the day rather than be stressed out about that on top of it.
JACKIE POMPOSELLI: Listen, you got to treat your employees well or they’re not going to want to work hard for you and they’re going to take advantage of a system that was created to really hold them down and make them feel like crap. It’s kind of a no brainer to me, but I get it. Some companies don’t have the revenue to provide the best of the best benefits for all of their employees, but it should be on your roadmap so that you can show folks like, we care. And this is what we’re working towards. We might not be there right now. This is our plan to get there. I think that speaks volumes for companies that aren’t able to provide the best culture or benefits that they can.
JONATHAN: Yeah, I feel like a company saying that they have a DEI, like a head of DEI now, is basically like the corporate equivalent of being like, I’m not racist, I have a black neighbor, and we get along really well. And it’s just like, I don’t understand how you can just virtue signal like that, especially at a corporate level.
JACKIE POMPOSELLI: Yeah. And honestly, if you do have that position, I would love to see what their budget looks like against others. And then once we see that, we can see how real they are about moving those types of initiatives forward.
