In this episode, Jonathan chats with Joe Moriarty and Wes Haddon, the dynamic duo behind an innovative hair care product that’s taking on the giants in the industry. The trio get into the nuances of the entrepreneurial journey, exploring how they turned a simple idea into a cult favorite product among men who dislike traditional shampoos. Joe and Wes share their insights on building a brand with a dedicated customer base, the challenges of acquiring those crucial first customers, the importance of maintaining a focused product line, and strategies for handling internet trolls. Their story is a perfect example of the power of authenticity, customer advocacy, and staying true to your vision. Read on for the full transcript and discover the valuable lessons these entrepreneurs have to offer.
Episode 15 of The Seller’s Edge, Joe, Wes and Jonathan talk about:
- 01:47 – Competitiveness of the Product Market
- 02:22 – Identifying the Needs of Consumers
- 04:03 – Starting to Build a Product and Brand
- 06:47 – Previous Seller Experiences
- 08:53 – Knowing that a Market Gap Existed
- 10:25 – Customer Obsession: The First Sign of Success
- 12:13 – Identifying Knowledge Gaps & Pain Points
- 15:20 – Reducing Product Variations for Optimal Performance
- 21:40 – Having a Strong Sense of Your Brand’s Core Values
- 25:27 – Creating a Name for the Brand
- 27:01 – Scaling Up while Maintaining Operational Discipline
- 31:29 – Capturing Market Share from Brand Name Competitors
- 34:20 – Leveraging Social Media for Education & Brand Recognition
- 38:13 – Embracing Minimalism for Long Term Gains
- 40:32 – The Unrivaled Power of Customer Loyalty
Key Takeaways:
- Always Keep The Customer In Mind
- Be Aware Of And Play Into Your Strengths
- If You’re Not An Expert, Find One
- Never Stray From Your Brand’s Core Values
- Increasing The Number Of Products Decreases Conversions
- Brands Stand Out By Being Original
- As You Gain Momentum, Safeguard The Foundation That Made It Possible
- Dedicate Significant Efforts To Customer Loyalty; It Is Your Greatest Asset
Full Transcript of Episode:
JOE MORIARTY: The shampoo space has a lot of brands, but in a way, that was part of the pain point and why we came to exist was like, there were way too many choices, but the products, they didn’t perform differently. They just maybe had a different fragrance or different hero ingredient. Part of what makes our brand exist, actually, is that it was such a competitive market. We came out and said, we’re this different thing. We’re going to be this outsider, and people are like, yeah, I’ll give that a shot. And there’s a lot of loyalty, at least with our customer base, to our product, which has been really great.
JONATHAN: We had spoken before, we were talking about my hair regimen before, and I was like, have I been doing this all wrong? And I went down a rabbit hole of Reddit and the Internet and just looking at things, I was like, oh, my God, I am doing things wrong because I’d shampoo every day and then I started conditioning for a few days and then going to shampoo. But eventually I tried the product and I loved the product. So I just really wanted to call that out because you guys are doing a great thing. And I love that it’s coming from a really authentic and earnest Place.
JOE MORIARTY: I didn’t realize you were a User of the Product. Actually, we got this Funny Video as a Surprise last night on TikTok. This customer, um, we hear this from guys all the time. They’ll be like, I never write reviews, or like, I would never do this before. And I looked at this Guy’s page. He made a video of him being like, shout out to Modern Mammals. I just use this. My hair is perfect. And I looked at his profile, and it was the third video he’d ever posted on his TikTok. And I was like, that’s how, you know, people love your product.
WES HADDON: Yeah, we’ve also, we’ve heard the Reddit narrative a lot, which is really interesting, of people looking out there, looking for answers. They’re scouring the Internet trying to find the solution to this problem that they don’t really, they know that there’s got to be something better out there, but they don’t know what it is. And just hearing that same over and over, like, we’ve been looking for you. I’m so glad I finally found you. This product that solves this problem has been really huge for us.
JONATHAN: Yeah. I mean, we form habits, and then they just become second nature to us. And eventually you kind of have to revisit it and be like, am I doing this? Because it’s the right thing to do, or it’s just what I’ve always done. And then you just open up a whole can of worms of figuring out, like, how many other of your habits that you need to revisit and kind of examine.
WES HADDON: For sure.
JONATHAN: Let’s start from the beginning. How did you guys, where did this all start?
JOE MORIARTY: I think, like most consumer products, it starts with your own. I just really didn’t like shampoos, and I would work out, and I would have to wash my hair. And I started talking to friends at the gym and guys I knew who played basketball and runners, and they all were just saying the same thing. They’re like, yeah, I, you know, got to wash my hair five days a week. But I’ve heard shampoo is damaging. I’ve heard that it’s too harsh on your scalp. It’s washed away your natural oils. And so I don’t know what to wash my hair with. I use water only, or I use a conditioner. And I had this realization of, like, there’s so many guys out there that are avoiding using shampoo. It was just this simple thing of, like, why don’t we make a product, people? Like? Then it became testing everything out there on the market, trying to develop the first product. We went through a lot of iterations on the formula. We still are constantly talking to customers to get feedback and improve the product. But it really just came from this daily pain point. I heard from people of, like, I’m avoiding using shampoo. I need something better to wash my hair with. It’s like listening. It’s like trying to hear what they’re not saying.
WES HADDON: Yeah, I think for, for me, it was a. I came to this brand after Joe had built a prototype product, at least. And it was kind of funny because I was in a place where I was trying to solve the same problem in a different way. We’ve talked a couple of times about this, Joe as well. But basically, I had built a dry shampoo prototype product that eventually was in a little vial. But the funny thing was, it was awful. Like, it really wasn’t a good product. It had all of the same ingredients as brownie mix and it was baking soda and cacao and arrowroot and things like that. And I was frustrated with what was, you know, what was happening. I was already on the journey of trying to find an alternative to shampooing, and I wasn’t washing my hair very much, and I was trying to come up with this thing to manage grease and stuff and oil. And when Joe and I met. He was a few steps ahead of me as far as product development goes, but we were going down the same path. And I think that it was just really interesting because it was validating for me to see him solving the same thing and also to, you know, to begin to look around and realize just how many people were looking at the same thing. The product started to make so much sense. The minute that all opened up it wasn’t just us.
JONATHAN: I love that. I also love the idea of a product that can double as either brownie mix or something for your hair. So, I mean, that’s. I mean, that’s like, just put it in different packaging or something. I’m just very curious about that. If there’s something.
WES HADDON: Yeah, it’s not dead in the water yet. I think it’s really important to have products that you can both cook with and use on your body.
JONATHAN: Yeah. I mean, coconut oil.
JOE MORIARTY: Baking soda. There are some. There’s some commonality there. Yeah. That’s safe for the body. Yeah.
JONATHAN: Yeah. Is this your first entrepreneurial venture, or were there things before?
JOE MORIARTY: It was my first, but, Wes, you maybe were more entrepreneurial.
WES HADDON: I’ve had a couple of different things. There was a. There was a marketing agency for a little while. I’ve worked with startups for most of my career, joining very, very early on, if not right at the very beginning. And so the idea of starting something is not super new to me. My ideas have been less good historically. I was like the lemonade stand kid growing up, where I was selling longboards and pencil erasers, and it was just every single thing that you could possibly find. I was like, that’s a venture. And then most of them just failed, but here we go.
JONATHAN: That is so interesting to me. So do you know where that came from or what drove that? Was it? Were your parents thinking, like, inventors or something? I’m curious.
WES HADDON: No, I think it was. So I grew up really independent. I guess I was just always given free reign. I was like, here’s the garage. Here are all the cans of spray paint and the tools and everything. Go forth and do something. And it was an outlet. It was like, oh, I made this thing. What can I do with it now? I guess I’m going to make a business. And then that continued until I got bored of it and moved on to something else. But I think it was really good practice, because you get to see what beginning things look like.
JONATHAN: Yeah, I mean, some kids would get the spray paint in the ladder, and they’d be like, I’m going to vandalize something. And you’re like, I’m going to try to do something else with it.
WES HADDON: I did some of that too, honestly.
JONATHAN: I’ll cut this part out so you won’t be incriminated.
WES HADDON: But Joe’s approach to this has been much more methodical and I think much more research, and I think that’s been a cool duo as well, is seeing what happens as well when you really do the diligence on a product and seeing product market fit really be the beginning of something so clearly defined, so thought out, and really solving a problem is, I think that’s been a big factor in what I think has taken this business into something that’s different from Wes’s longboard shop. For me, at least.
JONATHAN: Yeah. I can absolutely appreciate that. I’m curious for you, Joe. When you started out, were there points where. So I’m a filmmaker in my spare time, and I’ve made some independent feature films which have, like, just sucked the life out of me just trying to get things up off the ground. And it could be a very trying experience. You’re basically Don Quixote trying to convince people to come fight windmills with you. So, I mean, were you just so certain of it? And you’re like, yes, I need to pursue this, or were there moments of doubt where you’re like, this is kind of crazy. I don’t know why I’m pursuing it.
JOE MORIARTY: I was confident in the pain point. I knew that there was a gap in the market. I’ve always been really confident in that. I didn’t have any background in CPG, but I think a lot of people start consumer brands. Maybe I’m just this consumer, and I have a pain point. And I try to tell myself that was an advantage of, okay, I’m an outsider to the shampoo industry, and the brand is really an outsider to the shampoo industry, and that’s our advantage. I tried to spin that as a positive. Um, but then when it came to, like, actually operating the business, like, there’s a lot of things, like, you know, had no experience, like managing inventory and working capital, and, like, as we think about, like, retailers, for example, like, I have no experience working with retailers. You know, no one who runs a business, like, knows everything. So it’s always been like, okay, how can we, when the time is right, supplement the business with that expertise? Like, for example, you know, going to Jillian for Amazon finding an Amazon agency in terms of the doubt. I remember this pretty clearly, this one moment during the first summer of COVID So summer of 2020. We had just launched in early 2020 and the supply chain just shut down. And we were like, okay, we need to apply for PPP loans. And it was summer, and I was back at my parents house. I was like, man, this is. It’s just terrible timing. Do we just, like, write it off to, like, bad luck? And we got this email from a customer. We were sold out. We had been sold out. Like, we weren’t. We’ve been sold out a bunch of times in the first, like, year and a half, mostly because of supply chain problems with COVID We got this email from this customer that was like, hey, I know you have more product, like, in the warehouse or whatever that you’re not telling us about. I will pay you more money for that product. Like, I will overpay you for the product. Cause I know you guys are lying and you’re not sold out. And I was like, man, we can’t close this business because people love this product. And so what I’ve always said is the e-commerce industry has definitely had challenges from COVID supply chain. I think iOS changes that put a lot of brands out of business. And actually, I think back to, we used to be in this men’s brand group and I looked back at them maybe a few months ago and all the men’s brands we started with are out of business. But it’s always been. We’ve had these tough challenges, but our product market fit has been so good that it’s like we have just survived it all and kept kind of thriving through that. So it’s been a story of an amazing brand, an amazing product market fit in kind of a tough e-commerce environment.
JONATHAN: I love that story about the customer sending you the email. That is amazing.
WES HADDON: It does give confidence that people are willing to pay for something that’s good and that they find useful.
JONATHAN: I think it’s like a skill they don’t teach you or they didn’t teach me growing up. Is the idea of being able to be comfortable with things that you don’t know and learning about them. From that perspective, what was one of the things that you guys learned about or came up against? And you’re like, oh, this is brand new. Had no idea that I should be expecting this. I mean, you mentioned retailers, but were there any other examples of that?
WES HADDON: I think we’ve done a really good job of finding, of putting that, I guess, like the ego I can solve this myself component aside and figuring out how to seek help from people who have walked that path before or are more comfortable understanding that space. And so that’s something that I feel that we’ve gained a lot from, is being able to bring in the right advisors, mentors, consultants, agencies for things that we kind of didn’t know or see. I think some of the biggest things that were surprises, I guess, were learning how to work with and manage a hyper loyal customer base has actually been just a really interesting learning for us. And I think that’s been really cool to get to grow into is seeing these people really, really want to see the brand grow and figuring out how to communicate with them in that way because it’s a different type of marketing. We’re growing a community in a sense. And I think that’s really, that’s been really cool because you’re not just trying to sell someone something, you’re trying to create something that they feel connected to and derive value from. And that’s an experience that was at least relatively new to me was getting to do that. I think the other thing was just catching all of these hurdles as they came, learning how to be out of stock and how to navigate that and communicate with people in a way that kept them feeling seen by the brand and at the same time being like, there’s literally nothing we can do out of like about this. It’s not a problem that we can buy our way through. It’s not a problem that we can just go make more. We’re just here and we want to see you guys there with us on the other side of this or the same thing with the iOS stuff struggling to reach people. There are definitely hurdles that have come up for this entire industry that we’ve had to learn crazy amounts from that I don’t think anyone necessarily really saw coming in that way.
JOE MORIARTY: We made a brand and we made a product because we wanted to improve people’s lives and it’s something we made for ourselves and we shared with other people. And, you know, you think when you do a consumer brand like, hey, I’m out there, like we’re the outsiders to the shampoo industry, right? Like we’re like, hey, we’re making a better product than Procter & Gamble and Unilever have been giving you and they’re trying to sell you all these products. We’re just making one really good one for you. But consumers are so skeptical that now, like they think that we’re like the big bad shampoo company. And so they’re like, hey, you guys are a shampoo company, too. And we’re like, no. Like, we’re on your guys side. Like we’re the outsiders. And they’re like, you corporate people trying to sell us products. And like, no. So that’s been a tough thing, I think just to deal with the kind of waves you ride as a business owner is like, consumers just don’t believe you that you made a product for them. They just think we’re all corporate people out there. The other one that’s much more tactical is part of running the business. There’s a lot of inventory, working capital, things that go into running a good business, like having fast production times. And so we actually, we sell a bar product. We originally were like, we’re going to be one hero product. This liquid magic mud. That’s all, we’re going to sell one great product. But we realized, like, getting plastic bottles was such a long production thing and just wasteful to have all this plastic that we developed actually another product to help improve our supply chain, not just because of what we heard from customers, which was definitely part of it, but also just because we need to be able to produce our product faster. And so we’ve had hurdles around production times because of COVID that we solved by actually just developing another variant of our product. But we had the hardest time. I’m someone who’s not great at when I have two really good options in front of me. We had the hardest time. Wes, you probably remember this. It was like 2022 or something where we had this peppermint formula that we used to sell. And we had like, because of actually because of supply chain issues with COVID like, we couldn’t get aloe vera because aloe vera used to be our main ingredient. And then when hand sanitizer, when Covid happened, everything switched to making hand sanitizer. There was a huge aloe vera shortage. It was this weird byproduct of COVID And so we had to switch and make our formula without aloe vera. And what we realized was, oh, people actually like this new formula better. But because it took us so much time to get that feedback, we already had the next production run happening. And so we got this new inventory of the old formula. And so we kind of confused customers about it. And people were like, I like this one better. Like, why did you stop making this one? And so we’re like, do we sell them both? Like, do we try to be simple and minimalist for customers and just make one product we think is the best and only sell that? Or do we now split and sell two variants. And it was like the hardest decision. We ended up going with just one, but I think there’s customers that we lost that if we sold that old formula again that they’d come back. But that was one of the hardest things, I think.
JONATHAN: Yeah, that’s an extremely tough decision.
WES HADDON: Yeah. I’ve tried so hard to repress that memory. That year of going from version one of the product to version two to version one to version two and trying to communicate with customers and keep everybody in the loop beyond it, just being difficult to find the actual formula iteration that we felt was the best because we were getting a lot of contradictory feedback and making that decision is really difficult, but also trying to communicate to customers. We’re like, yo, we’re back to the. Remember the old one from before, this old one? We’re on that one now and I’m so glad we’re not doing that anymore. But I think that it was an interesting time because we were wrestling with customer communication, making sure that we were being as transparent, clear as possible about what we were doing, the reasoning for why and everything like that, and also just sitting there every day for a chunk of time trying to figure out which of these two formula versions we feel is going to make the most people, the most satisfied with the product because we were looking at two really good options that a lot of people liked and trying to figure out how we can lock one in and move forward with full confidence was just a really difficult but also kind of exciting time.
JOE MORIARTY: My brother even was mad at me for stopping selling the peppermint formula because he loved it so much. And we may have lost him as a customer because that’s the one he really loved. And I was like, sorry, man, we have to stop selling it. Like, stock up now while you can.
JONATHAN: Yeah, that is just tough because you really, I mean, you guys obviously had some data to go off of, but just making that call, ultimately, that’s tough. Anybody else would have just split it into two variants, but it would have been the wrong decision so I think that reinforces everything that you guys are about.
JOE MORIARTY: But part of the thing with e-commerce, though, is like, your conversion rate, right, on your website. And it’s like, even if we had, we were a small brand back then, so maybe we lost whatever x number of hundred customers or something. That was tough, but we had to decide, okay, but for the next five years, is our conversion rate on our website going to be that much better by just simplifying the decision making process so we could sell ten different products on our website, because there are ten products out there that people like, but are people going to find the best one if we are trying to sell them a few? So there’s a little bit of an e-commerce tactic there, I think, and accepting that loss to have a better go forward customer experience.
JONATHAN: Yeah, that’s solid. I appreciate that a lot. Going back to the brand thing, because kind of two things on that. I don’t know if you guys have ever drank canada dry ginger ale, but one of the big things on their label is made with real ginger, and there is absolutely no ginger in the actual, in the ingredients. And it always kills me. Like, once I found that out it’s like, oh, I’m never touching that again. And I don’t know, it’s just crazy that brands try to pull stuff like that and they’re going to sue me. I’ll add a legal disclaimer. So you guys aren’t incorporating that lawsuit at all.
WES HADDON: Perfect.
JOE MORIARTY: Why has no one else sued them about it?
JONATHAN: I don’t know. I mean, maybe there’s some sort of loophole when they’re like natural flavors, but yeah, it’s not there. Oh, go ahead.
WES HADDON: I was going to say on the ingredient thing, it’s been really interesting to be in control of and to choose the ingredients for a product and to find ourselves going from this formula that we began with to really handcrafting and choosing every specific piece of that formula to try and make something that’s the best possible product that we ourselves will use and that we believe is going to create the best experience for our customers. And so it’s been really interesting because we have been extremely honest with everybody about our formula iterations, the reasoning for why here’s where were coming from, and also being honest with ourselves about the reason that were doing anything, making sure that were not doing iterations on a formula to cut costs or anything, and instead were trying to create the best possible product. But it’s been really interesting to be at the steering wheel of that and making decisions both for ourselves and for our customer base that’s growing day over day and really just holding the helm on that and being cool. We’re making decisions for a lot of people out here and we owe it to them and ourselves to pick the right ones and to be consistently doing that.
JONATHAN: I feel I liked you guys initially. This just totally made me fall in love with you. And I love that you’re just thinking of it from that perspective. And I’m a big believer in Simon Sinek. Start with why. And it’s just like if you develop something from a deeper place, people will be loyal to it and believe in it. And I’m curious, is that from your own experiences as consumers, are there brands that you kind of looked at and you’re like, yeah, this is the sort of brand we want to be.
JOE MORIARTY: I’m trying to think of examples because I feel like back in the day, like, there definitely were, I definitely had a list of brands of like, this is what we want to look like and sound like whenever, but I don’t know if I do anymore. I don’t know if I can tie this to a specific brand. But like, to me it’s always really been like the outsider to the shampoo industry. Like I’m trying to think of a brand. Maybe you guys can think of examples like brands that are outsiders to their space that don’t sound like other brands in their space. I can say what I aspire to on the marketing side, which we’re not there yet, is Red Bull where when they advertise, I mean some of their advertisers like oh Red Bull gives you wings but they don’t really talk about the product. They’re like hey our product has 90 milligrams of caffeine and 10 grams of this and it’s going to do this and this. They’re just like watching a snowboarder go off this cliff or watch this biker and his half pipe. Like I want our marketing to just be something that doesn’t even have to talk about the product. We’re definitely not there yet. But that’s what I try to convey to our people who like making content for us. But really I don’t know if there are outsiders. Can you guys see any outsider brands that just kind of don’t sound like the others. I mean we poke fun at other shampoo companies.
JONATHAN: I mean the one that comes to mind, I don’t know if it’s necessarily from that perspective, but rise mushroom coffee is like they’re not a coffee and yet they are trying to take a market share from them, which is great.
WES HADDON: Yeah and I think kind of in that same way I think the mud water world does a really good job. I remember I had a hat for a little while from them that said ‘fuck your coffee’. And I think that it was so interesting because as a brand that has positioned itself as partaking in an industry but from the outside and they’re poking holes in it at the same time they’re replacing something or they’re kind of engaging with it in a way. And yes, the rise mushroom coffee thing, I think there’s a lot of cool stuff that we get to play with in that space by being this kind of renegade outsider. We’re not like those guys. Brand that just makes it so fun and so playful and can be so entertaining and also really, I think gets the point across of we’re not like those guys, we made something different.
JOE MORIARTY: Some of the brands that I remember thinking of, I just looked in my old folder like thinking of when we were thinking about kind of visual or like simplicity and minimalism were like brandless, if you remember brandless which went bankrupt, but like they were from their ethos. I just really love the brandless ethos and then from a packaging perspective, like, everyone loved RX Bar. If you remember, like, RX Bar’s packaging was, like, super innovative at the time. Like, we’re putting the ingredients right on the front. And the original, like, packaging designs for our early iterations of the product were much more like RX Bar of, like, we’re just going to be four ingredients and put our four ingredients on the front of the bottle. Unfortunately, every brand kind of rushes to copy the successful ones. So it’s hard to be different because when you see someone doing something different, everyone goes and copies them. So you have to really be thinking just independently on your own. You can’t really follow any trends.
JONATHAN: Yeah, I mean, that is always the problem. And having worked at agencies as well as in house and whatnot, I always had clients coming to me being like, ‘I want to make a promo just like that promo’. I was like, ‘no, you don’t want to make that promo. Because that promo no one else made. And that’s why it was that promo.’ You want to surprise people and get to them, but not doing the exact same thing because they’ve already seen it.
WES HADDON: Yeah.
JOE MORIARTY: And there were a lot of really minimalist brands that were successful over the last few years that we had our eye on. There was like, simply gum native brandless RX bar. Like I said, oh, there’s one that Wes and I both. Oh, Doctor Bronner’s like, I think we both really admire as a brand just kind of their outsiderness. But, like, also being fun.
JONATHAN: Yeah, I mean, I love the name. It’s interesting because it doesn’t really need an explanation. And, I mean, it’s a little open to interpretation. But I’m curious, where did that come from for you guys? Was there a specific reason you decided, hey, Modern Mammals.
JOE MORIARTY: So Modern Mammals came from this original kind of belief in the paleo mindset of, like, you should do things that are more natural to your body. Like, people eat the paleo diet of, like, eat what a caveman ate. And so we’re kind of like, why don’t we try to treat our head more naturally? Shampoo is this unnaturally harsh thing that’s, like, distorting our bodies. Why don’t we keep things more kind of in line with that paleo mindset? That’s where Modern Mammals came from. But as we moved away from this kind of paleo mindset with the product, we realized, like, hey, actually, like, you know, sometimes the modern ingredients that we can make now that are synthetic are actually, like, better for your hair than, like, raw aloe, which is something we’ve had to educate customers on. A lot of customers are like, give me natural. Give me natural, give me natural. And we’re like, actually, like, some of the modern things that we can make now in 2024 are, like, better for your head than raw leaves. So as we moved away from this natural thing with the paleo, I think what Modern Mammals has meant to me is the fundamental thing about being a mammal is you have hair. That’s how we define some of the species. And so hair is this identifier for a lot of animals, for being a mammal. And for a lot of guys, you may not accessorize that much, but your hair is your unique thing. And so, to me, Modern Mammals is this celebration of hair as something that is you.
JONATHAN: Yeah. How big is your team? Is it just you guys and you’re outsourcing a lot of it, or is there a broader team that you have?
JOE MORIARTY: We have people in the mix around social media and customer support. We have a partnership with another brand owner. And we share some resources. But we’ve been lucky in that Wes and I have been doing this for just over four years together. One of our guys, Ridley, has been with us, I think, for a little over three years. People that are involved in the brand, I think have fun being involved with it. Nick, who was one of our customer support guys when he was in college, is still texting me all the time. I always see him on our social media. But yeah, we’ve had a little bit of a ragtag team. I don’t know. But the nice thing is our manufacturing and supply partners and things. We have had long relationships with our main manufacturer we started working with during COVID Been producing with them for four years. Our bar manufacturer was an advisor and friend to the brand for a number of years before we started working with him. Our fulfillment partner is our owner in the brand. So we’ve had a really good kind of loyal group working together. Yeah, we keep it pretty lean.
JONATHAN: Nice. Are there any concerns with just scaling up or do you think you guys are good and you can handle it?
WES HADDON: There are definitely going to be, yeah, we’re going across bridges and have to build bridges and look around corners and all of that stuff as we go. I think it would be extraordinarily naive to say that there’s nothing that we are going to run into. I think we’ve done a good job, not a perfect job, but a good job of building a team and a structure that’s prepared us for growth and having a lot of confidence that we can solve things as they come up. The way that this brand has been built feels really good. We’re lightweight and agile, but we have people that we trust and we know how to find people that we trust and stuff like that. And so I think that there’s a lot of confidence that comes from that and it makes it really easy to push the gas pedal knowing that there are problems that we see on the horizon that we dont believe we can solve. And I think that that’s the biggest thing for me.
JOE MORIARTY: The thing I see though is there’s this expression like, oh, overnight success, ten years in the making. That’s definitely what Modern Mammals will have. We’re scaling pretty fast right now. We just did this partnership with a comedian named Pete Holmes. So we’re entering this place of really fast growth, but we’ve been doing it for over four years, slow and steady and actually more like, more like this with COVID and sold out and whatnot. But we’re in a position, yeah, where I think, like what Wes said, we can, we have people we trust, but we will definitely need to add to the team because it’s going to go like this. But I think people will see the brand and they’ll think, oh, wow, Modern Mammals came out of nowhere and now people know the name. But that’s not what it has felt like.
WES HADDON: No. You definitely don’t see the zigzag all over the place that goes into those early few years of learning so many lessons and having to go through partnerships that didn’t work and things like that in order to get to the place where we’ve had a lot of, we’ve had a handful at least, of really long term sustaining partnerships and things we really believe are going to follow us far into the future. And we’ve rotated through a lot of things that didn’t work very well and learned a lot from that. And so I think there’s, you know, you don’t see the, you don’t see the chaos that goes into those, the first ten years or how many years of that overnight success. That takes it to the point where you’re actually equipped to do the overnight success thing, which I think we’re both really hoping for.
JOE MORIARTY: Yeah. The thing that you were saying earlier about how you have like, wiped from your memory that year of like, switching over a product, the thing I’m trying to wipe from my memory is ever working with one of our fulfillment partners, who maybe I won’t name for the sake of the podcast, but they were one of these new age venture back fulfillment partners where they spread your product out everywhere so you could have two day delivery. And our product was across nine warehouses. Suddenly we owed tons of sales taxes. Products were being shipped from this place, from this place, from this place to the same customer. And we just simplified. We went from having it across nine warehouses to just shipping in one warehouse. And maybe it costs us a little bit more on the shipping side, but it saves us a ton of headaches. That’s one of the most painful memories I have from building the business, was switching fulfillment providers at times.
JONATHAN: Yeah. I mean, it’s so admirable because you guys have this great product and it’s competing in this space that is really competitive and has a lot of options. And there must be, it must feel like you have one hand tied behind your back because you can’t call it shampoo outright. So I’m curious, is that just running a lot of PPC on other shampoo keywords? I’m wondering how you guys have found or navigated that. I’m sure Jillian is somebody who is neck deep in that sort of thing, but I’m just curious, have you guys found challenges or advantages to that part of it?
WES HADDON: Yeah, first of all, having help on SEO and people who really understand that space and I think has been really invaluable for us figuring out how to define this product, not only from a brand and emotional perspective, but from a tactical, technical perspective, whether it’s a two in one which is not, or a shampoo which is not, or a conditioner which is not. We kind of exist in this weird void where the Venn diagram doesn’t actually exist in the middle, where we are, I think has been really interesting because it’s such an advantage once you can cross that moat or once you can get someone across the moat to where you are. Because at the moment we really do get to feel like we stand alone in that space. The hard thing has been, like you’re saying, figuring out where we can, what are parts of the industry that we could latch onto and that we can clip onto and build a bridge to pull people over to where we are. And I think that we have learned some things. We’ve played a lot with how to use the word shampoo in our marketing and to create differentiation and be not that, but also to be close enough to that where someone can conjure a mental image of what the product use looks like. Lately with this partnership with Pete Holmes, he did a really good job of describing it as the non shampoo shampoo. And so alliterative as that is, it’s been really interesting to try and play with phrasing and words like that. And from an SEO perspective, like, hey, look, we just got shampoo. And at the same time, we also get to claim to be the non shampoo shampoo. And so there are things like that where we’ve, it’s a huge learning process for us and we’re learning more about it every day and every time we try to kind of cross a bridge there. But we’re figuring some things out and how to define ourselves and where to get close enough to that industry, but also keep our distance.
JOE MORIARTY: Because we don’t fit neatly into an Amazon category. Like they don’t even have a “co-wash” category. It’s just like shampoo conditioner two in one. So that part has been a little bit painful. But with e-commerce, we’re able to explain the product a little bit more where we’d struggle more on a retail shelf. When you have four words to describe yourself, that will be a tougher pain point for a tougher problem for us to solve once we don’t have a website to do it.
JONATHAN: Yeah, I imagine you guys leaned a little bit into social and influencers for the educational piece. How is that? And Pete Holmes is a huge get. So that’s awesome. But early on, was that something that you were leaning into heavily?
JOE MORIARTY: Yes, social, not really influencers. We look at our customers as influencers where they might comment on our ads like, hey, this product is actually really great. Or really trying to show people, hey, rather than us even trying to describe this product so much, we’re just like, hey, look, all these guys love this product. Take that as the proof rather than us trying to explain every little thing about it. Just like, here’s 500 guys that love our product. Trust them, not us.
JONATHAN: Yeah, I mean, that is just, that is just the silver bullet, right. The word of mouth is just free marketing, and there’s just so much value in that. And people trust the people that they trust. And to hear it is just solid.
WES HADDON: I think anecdotally, having spoken to so many people about this, there’s just such an interesting relationship between saying, trying to sit there for 15 minutes and explain, this is what this is and this is what it does and this is why it does it. And all of this stuff versus saying two key phrases of this thing is not shampoo, but people like it a lot more. Look at these thousands and thousands and thousands of guys who love this stuff way more. And those two things, I think, really connect the dots on, like, you don’t really need to understand it, but you’re going to use it, you’re going to freaking love it, and then you can understand it as much as you want or as little as you want afterwards. It’s like, it can be magic or it can be something that you dive all the way into. And either way, we’re really good with that.
JOE MORIARTY: That’s exactly what Wes said when someone asks me about the product in person rather than try to explain it. Totally. I’m like, yeah, it’s for guys who don’t like traditional shampoo. And they’re like, oh, yeah, that’s me.
JONATHAN: That’s so good. So, I mean, it’s great to have a product that sells itself, and once it starts selling itself, you have people being those testimonials for it. But how do you get people to try it in the first place, is the question. I’m curious if you have any thoughts there.
WES HADDON: Yeah, so, I mean, it’s been a handful of things, and it’s definitely a flywheel. Right. It’s. The more. The more you’re able to get in front of people. This seems to be one of the biggest things that comes with sort of a cult following, is that people want to evangelize the product. And so the more people you’re able to put the product into the hands of, the more you find that you’re able to get people out there talking about it, kind of hyping it up, and, you know, it’s a hygiene, like a hair product, so people don’t, like, go scream from the rooftops about it. But we have found that referrals and kind of anecdotal stuff is a part of how people find us. I think the biggest thing, and early, early in the brand, what we found was we really had to go out, and those first few customers we had to pay to get, we had to go acquire them on social media in some capacity and really find ourselves able to control that narrative. Just to get the wheel started and the inertia going, we had to go, and we had to buy the ability to get in front of each of these people. And then we had to coach them through it. We had to teach them a little bit. And then the more and more we were able to start leaning on social proof for our brand, at least that became a lot easier, because then we started to be able to use that message of, like, don’t even like, guys, just love it. Just. Just trust all of your people out here.
JOE MORIARTY: The real way we get customers is that Wes is actually a conspiracy theorist about big shampoo. He makes these videos where he educates the public about what big shampoo is doing to us. And, no, it’s just like, it’s like a spoof. It’s just a spoof. But, yeah, there’s weird, wacky stuff. Yeah, paid advertising, too.
JONATHAN: Yeah, that’s amazing. No, I really appreciate that. I mean, there’s just something so brilliant about the fact that you guys created a product that sells itself and listen, my brain connects weird things. But I was just listening to Larry David on a podcast, and he was talking about how one of the benefits of him doing Curb Your Enthusiasm, is that when he meets people in public, he can act any way that he wants towards them, and they will be appreciative for it. And so the fact that you guys are, you know, keeping that minimalistic aspect to your brand is, I mean, you don’t have to worry about, like, iterations and really diversifying and all that stuff. But I’m curious, have you thought about breaking out into other personal care products? Or I’m just, like, wondering how you guys see a roadmap for that, or if it’s just not, you’re not there yet, you’re not thinking about it.
JOE MORIARTY: We get asked this all the time, and it’s definitely something where, you know, if you’re an entrepreneur, you know, you want to sell, you always have new product ideas. Right? And I think part of making this a special brand is being able to say no to all these temptations. People are like, oh, are you guys going to make deodorant? Like, are you going to make body wash? And I’m like, no, because we don’t want to. It’s part of that, like, kind of conversion thing. Too, is like, we don’t want to distract people from our main message, because if someone comes to our website and it’s like, hey, we make this alternative shampoo and we make deodorant and body wash, they’re like, well, what do I, what do I try? And it takes away the specialness of our hair product. I think, like, the model I have in my mind is like, head and shoulders. And if you think about a lot of big shampoo, more private, traditional shampoo brands, like Suave, pantene pro v organics, like head and shoulders, they don’t sell body wash and deodorant. They are hair care focused. And I think, like, we want to be the best hair washing product for guys. Like, that is what we want to be. I don’t need to sell body wash. I don’t know a way to differentiate body wash. The body wash out there and the soap out there is fine just how it is. I don’t know a better way to do that.
WES HADDON: Better to be phenomenal at one thing or really, really own one thing for some group of people versus trying to be a little bit of something for everything, for everyone.
JONATHAN: Yeah. Going back to your point about option shock and just how many variations of the products are out there. Perfect example is when I go to buy toothpaste and it’s just like, there are like, 40 different versions of toothpaste for the same brand. And I’m just like, uh. And then I will look for the brand that has, like, three different options that I can just narrow my viewpoint on. So I think what you guys are doing is brilliant.
JOE MORIARTY: I think we make an amazing product, and the place our brand is at is not to make more products. It is to take the amazing things that we have and just get them out to more people.
JONATHAN: Which is what everybody should be doing, and they just end up diluting their existing products by trying to do it… So in a world of Internet trolls, I’m curious. You guys have a really positive brand. I love that it’s so authentic, too. How do you maintain a positive brand image in a world of, I mean, we’re living in a very, we’re living in a world where people love to trash everything and just have opinions. No offense, Joe. And I’m curious how you guys go about that and handle it.
JOE MORIARTY: Yeah, it’s all Wes. I want to fight with the trolls. I want to get into arguments with the trolls. And I comment back, and Wes is like, no, it doesn’t look good for us. And I’m like, no, that guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
WES HADDON: That is actually extremely true. But beyond keeping the peaceful Zen approach to responding to people, I think it was an interesting thing because this, to me, also is relatively new. I think seeing the Internet used in a way where you build your thing, you go and you make your lemonade stand or whatever it is, and you put it out in the world and people want to throw tomatoes at it. You’re like, wait, what did I do wrong? We’re out here, people who haven’t even tried the product, you’re like, we’ll try it first. And they’re like, I’m not going to try it. You guys are evil. Whatever it is. You’re this big company or something. And we’re like, we’re really not that. And they’re like, no, I don’t believe in you or whatever it is. And I think that recognizing that as just a thing that exists in the world now, and there’s a part of it where it can be really frustrating at first. You can feel sort of personally attached to a lot of negative comments coming from people who may or may not have interacted with your brand in a heavy way. Like they might just be throwing rocks to throw rocks. And then also there might be, you know, there might be people who are coming with real constructive feedback, criticism, things like that. And, you know, I think being able to kind of parse that out into what’s real and what’s just like throwing tomatoes at your lemonade stand is, I think, really, really an interesting exercise. I think that some really cool things have come out of that as well. Joe and I have talked a lot about how we do get trolls and we do, if we put an ad out there, we see comments that are sometimes just like, ridiculously negative and often for no reason. Or they’re people trying to punch holes in the product’s validity or things like that. And seeing our existing customers or people who are on board with us show up for us and defend us and say, actually, you’re kind of wrong on that one. This is actually a really good product. And these guys, whatever, they’ve the ingredients, they stand the test of people who are doing research on this and stuff like that, I think can be really cool because it can turn a negative into a positive. Or if we’re able to jump on and sort of gently converse with somebody and they actually, we’ve had instances where people went from skeptics and trolls into long term customers, and they’ve even come back on comments and said like, yo, I was wrong. Like, these guys, they’re good, they’re on the right side. And I think that seeing those types of things can be really cool. But also just recognizing, like, trolls are out there and I don’t think that that’s going anywhere. Like, there are people who just want to punch holes in this kind of thing. Yeah, you know, you recognize that you can win some of these and you can convert some of these things into, into really positive interactions, and sometimes you literally just have to let it slide off of your back because we’ve recognized their battles. We’re just, we’re never going to win that argument. And so I think figuring out when to just kind of let it slide is a big thing, too.
JOE MORIARTY: We had this customer quote and it was this guy who was like, yeah, I really thought your shampoo company was stupid, but now I tried your product and I’m like a user for life. But yeah, so now we just try to convert the trolls.
JONATHAN: Please tell me you wallpapered that testimonial everywhere that you possibly could.
JOE MORIARTY: It might have been on our website.
JONATHAN: I mean, I would just post that once a day for the rest of your life.
JOE MORIARTY: We have so many of those things. Honestly, we should use them more. Yeah, it’s on our website. Yeah, there’s a. Yeah, I’ll read it. It says, not gonna lie, I thought your shampoo was gimmicky and stupid, but I’ve been using it for about a week and honestly, I’m never going back to regular shampoo.
JONATHAN: Oh, you guys have just won, like, universally. You guys just have won on all fronts. And I love that it comes from a really pure intention. And Joe, I identify with you. Like, I cannot bite my tongue. And there are just some instances where I just. And it has gotten me into trouble. I don’t know why anyone ever gave me a podcast, because the most dangerous place in the world is the three inches between my mouth and microphone. Like, it’s just not, like it’s just a matter of time before I get myself canceled for saying something. But I love that you guys have shown that restraint, and I love that you have customers that just speak up for you. That is phenomenal.
WES HADDON: Yeah, that’s given me a lot of peace of mind. I think in a lot of directions as well, is just knowing that we’re on the right side of things because people are, they are sticking up for us, you know, and that’s something that they actually care about enough to do that. And b because they actually do kind of fight our battles for this. And that’s kind of dope too, because as a brand, I think that looks a lot better if someone jumps in and sort of vouches for you because of course, a brand is going to defend itself, but if somebody else does it for you, I think that’s just so much more impactful in all directions. This person is not in any way attached to the success of this thing and they’re going out of their way to help someone to see the brand side too, which I think is just really cool.
JONATHAN: It gives me hope for the world.
WES HADDON: Same.
JONATHAN: You guys are fantastic. I adore your product and now I’ve come to adore you guys and I just wish you all the success. And I’m going to be one of those people shouting you guys praises from the rooftops. If there’s anything that I can do, if you guys just need somebody to wash your car or whatever, just reach out to me. But this has been an amazing conversation. You guys are great. And thank you for taking the time to talk to me.
JOE MORIARTY: Thank you, Jonathan.
WES HADDON: It was a pleasure. This was fun.
